63. (bond-cah@yandex.ru) 2003/02/14 18:14
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>>62.пух....
>А теперь с Наступившим!!!!!!!!
>
Угу.
62. пух....2002/12/15 19:16
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А теперь с Наступившим!!!!!!!!
61. 2002/12/15 01:38
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А теперь публично тебя поздравить... с наступающим...8 марта!
(а также дедушку и маму)
60. (tchijik@juno.com) 2002/12/09 20:16
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Здравствуйте, Сергей Алексеевич!
Ваша страница выглядит впечатляюще. Тема, которую Вы подняли, важна и для сегодняшнего мира. К сожалению, Ваша статья мне показалась довольно поверхностной. Поскольку Вы скромно умалчиваете о себе самом, трудно определить, в чем здесь дело: то ли Вы еще находитесь в процессе обучения, то ли Вы по-прежнему под гипнозом определенной традиции и авторитетов. В свое время меня заинтересовал несколько иной вопрос, который для Карла Маркса никогда не был вопросом, - проблема ханжества: Какими приемами человек современного общества, но выросший в условиях строгой религиозной морали, постепенно усыпляет свою совесть и вырождается в обыкновенного крокодила? В этом отношении мне показалась интересной работа Лютера "Торговля и ростовщичество", начало которой сохранилось у меня на компьютере в английском переводе:
Trade and usury
VI.1 The holy gospel, now that it has come to light, rebukes and reveals all the 'works of darkness', as St. Paul calls them in Romans 13:12. For it is a brilliant light, which illumines the whole world and teaches how evil are the works of the world, and shows the true works we ought to do for God and our neighbor. As a result even some of the merchants have been awakened and become aware that in their trading many a wicked trick and hurtful financial practice is in use. It is to be feared that the word, of Ecclesiasticus apply here, namely, that merchants can hardly be without sin (Eccl. 26:29). Indeed, I think St. Paul's saying in the last chapter of the first epistle to Timothy fits the case, "The love of money is the root of all evils" (1 Tim. 6:10), and again, "Those who desire to be rich fall into the devil's snare and into many useless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and perdition" (I Tim. 6.9).
VI.2 I suppose that my writing will be quite in vain, because the mischief has gone so far and has completely gotten the upper hand in all lands; and because those who understand the gospel are probably able in such easy, external things to judge for themselves what is fair and what is not, on the basis of their own consciences. Nevertheless, I have been asked and urged to touch upon these financial evils and expose some of them so that, even though the majority may not wish to do right, at least some people - however few they are - may be delivered from the gaping j@ aws of avarice. For it must be that among the merchants, as among other people, there are some who belong to Christ and would rather be poor with God than rich with the devil, as Psalm 37:16 says, "It is better for the righteous to have a little than to have the great possessions of the wicked." For their sake, then, we must speak out.
VI.3 It cannot be denied that buying and selling are necessary. They cannot be dispensed with, and can be practised in a Christian manner, especially when the commodities serve a necessary and honorable purpose. For even the patriarchs bought and sold cattle, Wool, grain, butter, milk and other goods in this way. These are gifts of God, which he bestows out of the earth and distributes among mankind. But foreign trade, which brings from Calcutta and India and such places wares like costly silks, articles of gold, and spices - which minister only to ostentation but serve no useful purpose, and which drain away the money of land and people - would not be permitted if we had proper government and princes. But of this it is not my present purpose to write, for I expect that, like overdressing and overeating, it will have to stop of itself when we have no more money. Until then, neither writing nor teaching will do any good. We must first feel the pinch of want and poverty...
VI.4 It is our purpose here to speak of the abuses and sins of trade, insofar as they concern the conscience. The matter of their detrimental effect on the purse we leave to the princes and lords, that they may do their duty in this regard.
VI.5 First. Among themselves the merchants have a common rule which is their chief maxim and the basis of all their sharp practices, where they say: "I may sell my goods as dear as I can." They think this is their right. Thus occasion is given for avarice, and every window and door to hell is opened. What else does it mean but this: I care nothing about my neighbor; so long as I have my profit and satisfy my greed, of what concern is it to me if it injures my neighbor in ten ways at once? There you see how shamelesly this maxim flies squarely in the face not only of Christian love but also of natural law. How can there be anything good then in trade? How can it be without sin when such injustice is the chief maxim and rule of the whole businesls? On such a basis trade can be nothing but robbing and stealing the property of others.
VI.6 When once the rogue's eye and greedy belly of a merchant find that people must have his wares, or that the buyer is poor and needs them, he takes advantage of him and raises the price. He considers not the value of the goods, or what his own efforts and risk have deserved, but only the other man's want and need. He notes it not that he may relieve it but that he may use 't to his own advantage by raising the price of his goods, which he would not have raised had it not been for his neighbor's need. Because of his avarice, therefore, the goods must be priced as much higher as the greater need of the other fellow will allow, so that the neighbor's need becomes as it were the measure of the goods' worth and value. Tell me, isn't that an unchristian and inhuman thing to do? Isn't that equivalent to selling a poor man his own need in the same transaction? When he has to buy his wares at a higher price because of his need, that is the same as having to buy his own need; for what is sold to him is not simply the wares as they are, but the wares plus the fact that he must have them. Observe that this and like abominations are the inevitable consequence when the rule is that I may sell my goods as dear as I can.
VI.7 The rule ought to be, not, "I may sell my wares as dear as I can or will," but, "I may sell my wares as dear as I ought, or as is right and fair." For your selling ought not to be an act that is entirely within your own power and discretion, without law or lim-t, as though you were a god and beholden to no one. Because your selling is an act performed toward your neighbor, it should rather be so governed by law and conscience that you do it without harm and injury to him, your concern being directed more toward doing him no inj@ury than toward gaining profit for yourself But where are there such merchants? How few merchants there would be, and how trade would decline, if they were to amend this evil rule and put things on a fair and Christian basis!
59. (bond-cah@yandex.ru) 2002/12/09 19:09
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>>58.Циси
>Одно только название статьи заставляет, наконец, почитать Вебера. Ссылки (например, цитата из Франклина)очень конструктивные и прагматичные, статья же написана в лучших традициях социологической мысли. Иду по ссылке изучать классиков, потом дополню по существу :)
За "в лучших традициях" - спасибо. А классики и правда помогают. Эта работа - просто целевое их использование.
58. (Cisy@mail.ru) 2002/12/09 16:47
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Одно только название статьи заставляет, наконец, почитать Вебера. Ссылки (например, цитата из Франклина)очень конструктивные и прагматичные, статья же написана в лучших традициях социологической мысли. Иду по ссылке изучать классиков, потом дополню по существу :)
57. (bond-cah@yandex.ru) 2002/12/08 14:05
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>>56.Пух
>АААААААААААА!!!!
>У меня очень хорошее настроение!!!
>Присоединяйся!!
>И, пользуясь случаем, хочу публично сказать тебе СПАСИБО!
>Публичное пожалуйста. Чёрт, это звучит как-то непублично...
56. Пух2002/12/06 19:49
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АААААААААААА!!!!
У меня очень хорошее настроение!!!
Присоединяйся!!
И, пользуясь случаем, хочу публично сказать тебе СПАСИБО!
55. Bond (bond57@rambler.ru) 2002/12/02 15:21
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>>54.Пух
>А когда придешь??
>Мы с А.Н.(с обеими)страдаем.
>Я тут первый раз брала интервью. у работников почты.
>Мне понравилось.Я для них была в качестве развлечения.(Ой, какая маленькая!а сколько тебе лет? Выпей компотика, сьешь 50 кг конфеток- тебе полезно...- и все в таком духе.)
>бородач- это тот, который всех веселил в нетрезвом виде,а меня смутил?
>Надеюсь, я все-таки невиновата в твоей болезни. но в любом случае, извини.
>
Ты ни в чём не виновата. Это всё я. А бородач был хороший - и меня совсем не смущал (правда я два раза с кровати упал пока его стенагрофировал). Мне здесь без тебя ужасно грустно. Приходи, пожалуйста... ведь правда придёшь?
54. Пух2002/12/01 15:29
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А когда придешь??
Мы с А.Н.(с обеими)страдаем.
Я тут первый раз брала интервью. у работников почты.
Мне понравилось.Я для них была в качестве развлечения.(Ой, какая маленькая!а сколько тебе лет? Выпей компотика, сьешь 50 кг конфеток- тебе полезно...- и все в таком духе.)
бородач- это тот, который всех веселил в нетрезвом виде,а меня смутил?
Надеюсь, я все-таки невиновата в твоей болезни. но в любом случае, извини.